That was interesting to read. Thank you for linking to it.
My kids being too old to attend a creche (and too young to leave at home alone) has been one of the two reasons I haven't been seen at a BiCon for the past couple of years and why I don't expect to attend many more in the next few years.
As a parent, I think that someone deciding to organize a child-friendly event for bi parents and their allies is a fantastic idea.
Bicon, I feel, however shouldn't be that event. Bicon, for me, is a place for adult bisexuals to get together, in what is often a highly sexually charged atmosphere, to talk about their sexuality. I believe that Bicon is correct in enforcing a no under 18’s policy. Adult space is important too -- and for parents there's precious little of that. To make Bicon more child-friendly would be to strip it of its current mission – a very valid one, in order to replace it with another.
My answer wouldn't be to change Bicon, it would be for those interested to start a different event that meets the needs of bi parents.
Back in 1998 or so, some people tried to start a BiCamp as a cheap, casual, and child-friendly alternative to Bicon. It didn't work at the time, mainly because the organisers decided they needed to hire large marquees and other equipment, by which time it was very close to the time of the event and the price was getting rather similar to the low-income rates for Bicon.
However, I think it's a very workable idea, either in tents or during an off-peak period at a holiday village - I'd be up for it in future (ie once Sproggie and Sproglet turn up...) It would also lead to more events on the bisexual calendar, which is one of my personal priorities - Bicon is fantastic but only once a year, and Bifests aren't easy for people outside major cities to get to for a day.
For Bicon, there is the issue that we fill up many venues' social and workshop spaces already, so there just isn't the capacity for another stream of child-friendly workshops and an away-from-sexualised-atmosphere evening social space. We're also at the limit of organisational capacity - unless more people come along and offer to help organise such streams, it really isn't happening. A separate event would probably be easier for someone to organise than trying to fit in with the complexity of Bicon.
In the short term, I'd like to see the Helping Hand fund promoted as being able to fund childcare arrangements outside Bicon, eg paying for kids to travel to relatives to stay for the duration. My feeling is we ought to do anything possible for first-timers (and second-timers) to attend.
We're also at the limit of organisational capacity - unless more people come along and offer to help organise such streams, it really isn't happening
This is the nub of the problem as I see it. What is expected of a bicon has been growing year on year recently; for good reasons but making it a bigger job. Adding a broader childrens programme to what existing bicon volunteers are expected to do will I imagine simply deplete the pool of people able to give up the required amount of their life. As well as, as you say, perhaps reducing further what is already a diminishing pool of viable venues.
It has me reflecting on the way we try to professionalise the image of bicon to people who've never been, as along with BCN it's one of the few faces the community has. But under the gloss, it's more like a bunch of mates clubbing together to hire a really big holiday cottage for a weekend away together than like a Pride event.
I believe that Bicon is correct in enforcing a no under 18’s policy.
Point of fact: BiCon has not in recent years had a no under 18's policy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if these conversations led to a decision to make it 18 and over, but it isn't now. Not sure if there have or haven't been BiCons in the past that had that policy.
BiCon 2007's handbook even included the phrase "BiCon loves kids" - don't know who wrote that.
To make Bicon more child-friendly would be to strip it of its current mission – a very valid one, in order to replace it with another.
Could you put into words what you think its current mission is?
B.t.w. if it did go 18+, what would your policy be on bi teens of (a) 16 or 17, and (b) under 16? Ban them too? Or would you give them some kind of dispensation for being bi?
> Could you put into words what you think its current mission is?
Yup, I did: "to provide a place for adult bisexuals to get together, in what is often a highly sexually charged atmosphere, to talk about their sexuality"
What do you think of the comment, that you're getting from multiple sources, that "people who want an event like the one you're describing, should set up an event like the one you're describing"?
oh, and I'd say "no" to under 16 bi's as well. A bi teen event would a great thing, but it should be something separate from Bicon. Bicon, I feel, should be for adults.
This is certainly a common view, both among attendees and organisers, but it's not one I share. I feel that it's possible to have parts of a BiCon that are for adults without excluding non-adults from other parts.
Yes, I think this is a reasonable comment, and certainly what we aimed to do for 2007 (though in the end I think there were only one or two children in attendance anyway).
While I perhaps lean more to djm4's comment here, it's worth remembering that back when there was the demand for a bi teen thing, coupled with people prepared to work to make it happen, it happened as a separate event.
I don't see that as at all contradictory. We run a couple of activist weekends a year (in a good year). Doesn't mean that activists are unwelcome at BiCon/BiFest, nor that there's nothing for them to do when they're there. It also doesn't mean that if you're a partner of an activist who wants to go to BiCon/BiFest, you have to leave your activist at home, possibly in the care of someone else you've arranged to look after them.
OK, that analogy got a bit silly towards the end. But you take my point, I hope. Separate event for group X doesn't mean that group X couldn't still come to BiCon as a smaller percentage of the whole and have a good, if different, time.
What do you think of the comment, that you're getting from multiple sources, that "people who want an event like the one you're describing, should set up an event like the one you're describing"?
Well I have a lot of thoughts about that response, and I think it will end up being a whole other post - can't do it justice in a comment!
...*IS* BiCon a huge success today? To know whether something is a success, you have to know what its aims are. I haven't been to BiCon for a couple of years, but the last couple I dropped in on seemed to be drifting further and further away from what I wanted (and worked as hard as anyone for). Have the aims of BiCon changed over time, and what are they these days?
I suspect this is a question that gets revisited (and has multiple answers).
I wrote the 2007 handbook and updated and amended the guidelines for parents (with input from other team members past and present). The point was to make it clear that while BiCon is not a children's event per se, people who wished to bring children were welcome to do so, and we would do our best to accommodate them. We did run at least one specifically child-friendly session each day, led by a CRB-checked facilitator, and there were several other workshops that were suitable for under-18s.
(FWIW I don't think BiCon has ever had an 'over 18s only' policy, only an 'under-16s must be accompanied by a parent or guardian who is responsible for their behaviour and wellbeing' policy, and I'm of the opinion that this is the right line to take).
My thought is that the costs would become much higher for BiCon when I already feel it's verging on unaffordable (pay for childcare workers over three days? Increased insurance costs?) and also that the organization needs would possibly triple (not just to monitor the creche workers but to handle providing an entirely different thread of kid-friendly activities and the various activism roles listed). Given that the volunteer work done at present is very loosely scattered among some 8 or so people, I can't see where this extra army is going to come from. I think it would really require a group of people who were passionate about this issue - and, in some ways, if this was the most important thing for them to be working on, maybe it would really require a separate con, or maybe a "Bi-Camp" event that was more activity focused in general. I certainly agree with her that parents are often too busy to focus on these kinds of things and also that BiCon isn't too particularly kid-friendly, but to me I think it is more likely that NOT doing things like BiCon makes more sense for families than going. BiCon really isn't about playing and having fun even if we do some of that. On the other hand, if there are people who are committed to this issue, then they ought to get involved and make it happen - and I don't see an army of volunteers beating down the doors. Does Jennifer perhaps want to organize this?
To me really the description she lays out sounds like a completely different event from the one I've been to over the last three years, so I have a lot of questions about the compatibility on many levels.
BiCon really isn't about playing and having fun even if we do some of that.
Can you put into words what you think BiCon is about? (or "for"?) I think it'll be interesting and perhaps illuminating to see what various people feel/think about that.
No time for that today and I don't know if my thoughts are really worth recording.
I've only been going for three years and don't feel like I can speak to the history of it, only to my own experience. I certainly don't feel like arguing about it.
Re: No time for that today and I don't know if my thoughts are really worth recording.
I'm not actually interested in spending a lot of time writing it down.
I'm also not interested in debating with the author of the post, who is apparently the person who responded to me. I feel a bit ambushed. I didn't realize she was someone who read your journal. I will now keep quiet about this matter and discuss it privately elsewhere.
Re: No time for that today and I don't know if my thoughts are really worth recording.
As you wish. I'm interested in what you think about BiCon if you feel you want to say to me at some point, if ever, face-to-face or written.
This being the BiCon LJ community I didn't think to make the post private and I forgot that not everyone would know who the author was on LJ. Sorry you felt ambushed.
Not wishing to argue with your desire not to argue :-)
just wanted to add (for the benefit of people in general) that I don't think a long history with BiCon is required in order to contribute to discussions about its shape or its future.
I mean, I certainly agree that there's something to be said for knowing the history. But there are very very few people (if any?) around BiCon now who actually remember back to the start.
Someone else probably has a better grasp of the historical stats than I do - I don't know what the average number of BiCons is before people drift away. But I'm fairly sure that if people weren't entitled to form a view till they'd been around for three or four BiCons, a large proportion of this year's BiCon-goers would have to shut up - and I don't think that's productive.
Actually, I would say there's food for thought in the perceptions even of people who've never been, especially in discussions about who's welcome and what BiCon is for. In some cases, the reasons why they haven't been (yet) may be 100% relevant.
I would love the chance to attend a BiCon with my kid without feeling like I was fighting against a tide of unconscious child unfriendliness[1]. In fairness this child-hostility is really a society wide thing but my memory of the number of kids there were at Nottingham BiCon in 1993[2] leads me to believe that there was once more of an effort made to swim against this tide.
I'm not under-estimating the difficulty of this, but I hope the community might benefit from the increased range of people who could attend.
[1]NB, this comment is not based on previous Bicon, but on other weekend long similarly structured events I have attended with my daughter. Events with creches tied closely to session times and no evening childcare arrangements/co-ops/child friendly spaces lead to frazzled parents who basically never get a break. [2]First Bicon I attended, I also went to Kingston, Coventry, Leicester and London Bicons. For some context.
I am a bit late to this party but I have had very limited internet access recently.Asking people to define what Bicon means for them is always interesting but perhaps ultimately not very helpful on this issue, because you will never please all the bisexuals all the time yet trying to do that is what Bicon is stuck with.
Many bisexuals have children - nature of the beast.My own feelings on this are that there is certainly room for Bicon to be more child riendly, but to make it child centred would be as unbalanced as banning all children - many bisexuals do not have children and have no particular interest in those who do. The alternative child centred event (maybe even on the same campus but with different organisers and budget?) is surely the way to go if that is what you want?
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April 30 2008, 09:24:04 UTC 4 years ago
My kids being too old to attend a creche (and too young to leave at home alone) has been one of the two reasons I haven't been seen at a BiCon for the past couple of years and why I don't expect to attend many more in the next few years.
April 30 2008, 09:44:11 UTC 4 years ago Edited: April 30 2008, 09:45:25 UTC
Counterpoint:
As a parent, I think that someone deciding to organize a child-friendly event for bi parents and their allies is a fantastic idea.Bicon, I feel, however shouldn't be that event. Bicon, for me, is a place for adult bisexuals to get together, in what is often a highly sexually charged atmosphere, to talk about their sexuality. I believe that Bicon is correct in enforcing a no under 18’s policy. Adult space is important too -- and for parents there's precious little of that. To make Bicon more child-friendly would be to strip it of its current mission – a very valid one, in order to replace it with another.
My answer wouldn't be to change Bicon, it would be for those interested to start a different event that meets the needs of bi parents.
April 30 2008, 10:33:36 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
Back in 1998 or so, some people tried to start a BiCamp as a cheap, casual, and child-friendly alternative to Bicon. It didn't work at the time, mainly because the organisers decided they needed to hire large marquees and other equipment, by which time it was very close to the time of the event and the price was getting rather similar to the low-income rates for Bicon.However, I think it's a very workable idea, either in tents or during an off-peak period at a holiday village - I'd be up for it in future (ie once Sproggie and Sproglet turn up...) It would also lead to more events on the bisexual calendar, which is one of my personal priorities - Bicon is fantastic but only once a year, and Bifests aren't easy for people outside major cities to get to for a day.
For Bicon, there is the issue that we fill up many venues' social and workshop spaces already, so there just isn't the capacity for another stream of child-friendly workshops and an away-from-sexualised-atmosphere evening social space. We're also at the limit of organisational capacity - unless more people come along and offer to help organise such streams, it really isn't happening. A separate event would probably be easier for someone to organise than trying to fit in with the complexity of Bicon.
In the short term, I'd like to see the Helping Hand fund promoted as being able to fund childcare arrangements outside Bicon, eg paying for kids to travel to relatives to stay for the duration. My feeling is we ought to do anything possible for first-timers (and second-timers) to attend.
April 30 2008, 20:08:16 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
We're also at the limit of organisational capacity - unless more people come along and offer to help organise such streams, it really isn't happeningThis is the nub of the problem as I see it. What is expected of a bicon has been growing year on year recently; for good reasons but making it a bigger job. Adding a broader childrens programme to what existing bicon volunteers are expected to do will I imagine simply deplete the pool of people able to give up the required amount of their life. As well as, as you say, perhaps reducing further what is already a diminishing pool of viable venues.
It has me reflecting on the way we try to professionalise the image of bicon to people who've never been, as along with BCN it's one of the few faces the community has. But under the gloss, it's more like a bunch of mates clubbing together to hire a really big holiday cottage for a weekend away together than like a Pride event.
April 30 2008, 11:22:28 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
I believe that Bicon is correct in enforcing a no under 18’s policy.Point of fact: BiCon has not in recent years had a no under 18's policy. I wouldn't be at all surprised if these conversations led to a decision to make it 18 and over, but it isn't now. Not sure if there have or haven't been BiCons in the past that had that policy.
BiCon 2007's handbook even included the phrase "BiCon loves kids" - don't know who wrote that.
To make Bicon more child-friendly would be to strip it of its current mission – a very valid one, in order to replace it with another.
Could you put into words what you think its current mission is?
B.t.w. if it did go 18+, what would your policy be on bi teens of (a) 16 or 17, and (b) under 16? Ban them too? Or would you give them some kind of dispensation for being bi?
Thanks for commenting.
April 30 2008, 11:48:39 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
Hiya,> Could you put into words what you think its current mission is?
Yup, I did:
"to provide a place for adult bisexuals to get together, in what is often a highly sexually charged atmosphere, to talk about their sexuality"
What do you think of the comment, that you're getting from multiple sources, that "people who want an event like the one you're describing, should set up an event like the one you're describing"?
Smiles -- Erich
April 30 2008, 11:52:37 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
oh, and I'd say "no" to under 16 bi's as well. A bi teen event would a great thing, but it should be something separate from Bicon. Bicon, I feel, should be for adults.April 30 2008, 12:02:29 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
Bicon, I feel, should be for adults.This is certainly a common view, both among attendees and organisers, but it's not one I share. I feel that it's possible to have parts of a BiCon that are for adults without excluding non-adults from other parts.
April 30 2008, 12:26:54 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
Yes, I think this is a reasonable comment, and certainly what we aimed to do for 2007 (though in the end I think there were only one or two children in attendance anyway).April 30 2008, 19:14:00 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
I feel that it's possible to have parts of a BiCon that are for adults without excluding non-adults from other parts.*nods*
April 30 2008, 20:10:59 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
While I perhaps lean more to djm4's comment here, it's worth remembering that back when there was the demand for a bi teen thing, coupled with people prepared to work to make it happen, it happened as a separate event.May 1 2008, 05:28:45 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
I don't see that as at all contradictory. We run a couple of activist weekends a year (in a good year). Doesn't mean that activists are unwelcome at BiCon/BiFest, nor that there's nothing for them to do when they're there. It also doesn't mean that if you're a partner of an activist who wants to go to BiCon/BiFest, you have to leave your activist at home, possibly in the care of someone else you've arranged to look after them.OK, that analogy got a bit silly towards the end. But you take my point, I hope. Separate event for group X doesn't mean that group X couldn't still come to BiCon as a smaller percentage of the whole and have a good, if different, time.
April 30 2008, 11:54:48 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
I did think that was probably what you meant, but didn't want to put words in your mouth :-)April 30 2008, 11:57:08 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
What do you think of the comment, that you're getting from multiple sources, that "people who want an event like the one you're describing, should set up an event like the one you're describing"?Well I have a lot of thoughts about that response, and I think it will end up being a whole other post - can't do it justice in a comment!
April 30 2008, 13:59:31 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
Last year Jon asked on soc.bi:...*IS* BiCon a huge success today? To know whether something is a
success, you have to know what its aims are. I haven't been to BiCon
for a couple of years, but the last couple I dropped in on seemed to
be drifting further and further away from what I wanted (and worked
as hard as anyone for). Have the aims of BiCon changed over time,
and what are they these days?
I suspect this is a question that gets revisited (and has multiple answers).
4 years ago
April 30 2008, 12:23:02 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Counterpoint:
I wrote the 2007 handbook and updated and amended the guidelines for parents (with input from other team members past and present). The point was to make it clear that while BiCon is not a children's event per se, people who wished to bring children were welcome to do so, and we would do our best to accommodate them. We did run at least one specifically child-friendly session each day, led by a CRB-checked facilitator, and there were several other workshops that were suitable for under-18s.(FWIW I don't think BiCon has ever had an 'over 18s only' policy, only an 'under-16s must be accompanied by a parent or guardian who is responsible for their behaviour and wellbeing' policy, and I'm of the opinion that this is the right line to take).
April 30 2008, 09:59:04 UTC 4 years ago
Different views
My thought is that the costs would become much higher for BiCon when I already feel it's verging on unaffordable (pay for childcare workers over three days? Increased insurance costs?) and also that the organization needs would possibly triple (not just to monitor the creche workers but to handle providing an entirely different thread of kid-friendly activities and the various activism roles listed). Given that the volunteer work done at present is very loosely scattered among some 8 or so people, I can't see where this extra army is going to come from. I think it would really require a group of people who were passionate about this issue - and, in some ways, if this was the most important thing for them to be working on, maybe it would really require a separate con, or maybe a "Bi-Camp" event that was more activity focused in general. I certainly agree with her that parents are often too busy to focus on these kinds of things and also that BiCon isn't too particularly kid-friendly, but to me I think it is more likely that NOT doing things like BiCon makes more sense for families than going. BiCon really isn't about playing and having fun even if we do some of that. On the other hand, if there are people who are committed to this issue, then they ought to get involved and make it happen - and I don't see an army of volunteers beating down the doors. Does Jennifer perhaps want to organize this?To me really the description she lays out sounds like a completely different event from the one I've been to over the last three years, so I have a lot of questions about the compatibility on many levels.
April 30 2008, 11:23:38 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Different views
BiCon really isn't about playing and having fun even if we do some of that.Can you put into words what you think BiCon is about? (or "for"?) I think it'll be interesting and perhaps illuminating to see what various people feel/think about that.
April 30 2008, 11:25:41 UTC 4 years ago
No time for that today and I don't know if my thoughts are really worth recording.
I've only been going for three years and don't feel like I can speak to the history of it, only to my own experience. I certainly don't feel like arguing about it.April 30 2008, 13:23:23 UTC 4 years ago
Re: No time for that today and I don't know if my thoughts are really worth recording.
I think you can speak to what BiCon is about / for for you now, if you wish.April 30 2008, 13:29:50 UTC 4 years ago
Re: No time for that today and I don't know if my thoughts are really worth recording.
I'm not actually interested in spending a lot of time writing it down.I'm also not interested in debating with the author of the post, who is apparently the person who responded to me. I feel a bit ambushed. I didn't realize she was someone who read your journal. I will now keep quiet about this matter and discuss it privately elsewhere.
April 30 2008, 13:39:55 UTC 4 years ago
Re: No time for that today and I don't know if my thoughts are really worth recording.
As you wish. I'm interested in what you think about BiCon if you feel you want to say to me at some point, if ever, face-to-face or written.This being the BiCon LJ community I didn't think to make the post private and I forgot that not everyone would know who the author was on LJ. Sorry you felt ambushed.
4 years ago
April 30 2008, 19:58:08 UTC 4 years ago
No minimum history required
Not wishing to argue with your desire not to argue :-)just wanted to add (for the benefit of people in general) that I don't think a long history with BiCon is required in order to contribute to discussions about its shape or its future.
I mean, I certainly agree that there's something to be said for knowing the history. But there are very very few people (if any?) around BiCon now who actually remember back to the start.
Someone else probably has a better grasp of the historical stats than I do - I don't know what the average number of BiCons is before people drift away. But I'm fairly sure that if people weren't entitled to form a view till they'd been around for three or four BiCons, a large proportion of this year's BiCon-goers would have to shut up - and I don't think that's productive.
Actually, I would say there's food for thought in the perceptions even of people who've never been, especially in discussions about who's welcome and what BiCon is for. In some cases, the reasons why they haven't been (yet) may be 100% relevant.
April 30 2008, 20:09:12 UTC 4 years ago Edited: April 30 2008, 20:29:15 UTC
Good article
I would love the chance to attend a BiCon with my kid without feeling like I was fighting against a tide of unconscious child unfriendliness[1]. In fairness this child-hostility is really a society wide thing but my memory of the number of kids there were at Nottingham BiCon in 1993[2] leads me to believe that there was once more of an effort made to swim against this tide.I'm not under-estimating the difficulty of this, but I hope the community might benefit from the increased range of people who could attend.
[1]NB, this comment is not based on previous Bicon, but on other weekend long similarly structured events I have attended with my daughter. Events with creches tied closely to session times and no evening childcare arrangements/co-ops/child friendly spaces lead to frazzled parents who basically never get a break.
[2]First Bicon I attended, I also went to Kingston, Coventry, Leicester and London Bicons. For some context.
May 10 2008, 14:23:23 UTC 4 years ago
My tuppence worth
I am a bit late to this party but I have had very limited internet access recently.Asking people to define what Bicon means for them is always interesting but perhaps ultimately not very helpful on this issue, because you will never please all the bisexuals all the time yet trying to do that is what Bicon is stuck with.Many bisexuals have children - nature of the beast.My own feelings on this are that there is certainly room for Bicon to be more child riendly, but to make it child centred would be as unbalanced as banning all children - many bisexuals do not have children and have no particular interest in those who do. The alternative child centred event (maybe even on the same campus but with different organisers and budget?) is surely the way to go if that is what you want?